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12 October 2015

QuantumOverlord on Twitter Wanted A Debate With Us

@QuantumOverlord said Twitter wasn’t good enough, and wanted to write more.

He wrote this.
Q: "I do sympathize with UKIP as a party, however I do not agree with their policies on everything. Furthermore, I do acknowledge some people that vote UKIP are racist. Ironically perhaps more than 50% of UKIP voters sympathize strongly with labor which implies these voters are ignorant to the point they do not even realize UKIP is a fiscally conservative party. Such ignorance is not necessarily a vice, however it does suggest many supports of UKIP do not understand what the party represents. Were I of a more strident disposition I would be tempted to call these people ‘useful idiots’."

Q: "However the party itself and its policies is not well reflected in these individuals. Douglas Carswell, the party’s only MP, is a self described Gladstonian liberal and small government libertarian. And it is the balance of classical liberalism along with the namesake euroskeptism that attracted me to the party. Furthermore I consider myself to be a pragmatist and a realist and appreciate in these terms the need for controlled immigration (with the exception of the Green party, most political parties in the UK would also agree that mass, uncontrolled immigration is undesirable)."
Q: "I suggest to you that part of the reason UKIP is called racist so much is because immigration is a signature policy to UKIP and therefore bears the brunt of criticism from those that support mass immigration. To summarize, while my views are not identical to those of UKIP, my motivations for supporting the party are out of pragmatism, euro-skeptism and economic permissivism. And while my motivations are likely to be dissimilar to a significant minority of UKIP supports, they are not so incongruent with the party itself."

We responded:
Q: "I do sympathize with UKIP as a party, however I do not agree with their policies on everything. Furthermore, I do acknowledge some people that vote UKIP are racist."
SLAT: I sympathise too. I feel sorry for them. I don’t agree with their policies on many things, especially leaving the EU, upon which every other policy is based. Some people who vote UKIP are racist, yes. Many people. Too many.
Q: "Ironically perhaps more than 50% of UKIP voters sympathize strongly with labor which implies these voters are ignorant to the point they do not even realize UKIP is a fiscally conservative party. Such ignorance is not necessarily a vice, however it does suggest many supports of UKIP do not understand what the party represents."
SLAT: No, I know. We try to tell people this all the time. It’s what we do. Ignorance is not a vice, but education can help. They are ‘useful idiots’ to UKIP, yes.
Q: "However the party itself and its policies is not well reflected in these individuals. Douglas Carswell, the party’s only MP, is a self described Gladstonian liberal and small government libertarian."
SLAT: Many Kippers hate Carswell. They want him out. And Carswell votes consistently with the Tories, the same Tories that Ukip blame for our ills. In some cases, correctly.
Q: "And it is the balance of classical liberalism along with the namesake euroskeptism that attracted me to the party."
SLAT: Classic liberalism? Are you kidding me?
Q: "Furthermore I consider myself to be a pragmatist and a realist and appreciate in these terms the need for controlled immigration (with the exception of the Green party, most political parties in the UK would also agree that mass, uncontrolled immigration is undesirable)."
SLAT: We have borders. UK Border Patrol. Be a realist, don’t tell porkies.
Q: "I suggest to you that part of the reason UKIP is called racist so much is because immigration is a signature policy  to UKIP and therefore bears the brunt of criticism from those that support mass immigration."
SLAT: No, racism is racism when it is actual racism. Do you want examples of actual racism? Happy to provide.
Q: "To summarize, while my views are not identical to those of UKIP, my motivations for supporting the party are out of  pragmatism, euro-skeptism and economic permissivism."
SLAT: Why would YOU support them? You’re American right!?
Q: "And while my motivations are likely to be dissimilar to a significant minority of UKIP supports, they are not so incongruent with the party itself."
SLAT: What are your motivations then? Liberalism? UKIP are not Liberals. Euro-scepticism? It’s none of your business if you’re not European or British.  Kippers are mostly Eurosceptic or want out. Pragmatism? Where? What?
Q: "Economic permissivism" ???
SLAT: What?? Now you’re just making stuff up.

He then emailed us back and quoted our comments.
SLAT: “I sympathise too. I feel sorry for them. I don’t agree with their policies on many things, especially leaving the EU, upon which every other policy is based. Some people who vote UKIP are racist, yes. Many people. Too many.”
SLAT: “No, I know. We try to tell people this all the time. It’s what we do. Ignorance is not a vice, but education can help. They are ‘useful idiots’ to UKIP, yes.”
Q: On these points it seems we are roughly on the same page. However I stress, the “useful idiots” I was referring to are people who vote UKIP without understanding their policies.
SLAT: “Many Kippers hate Carswell. They want him out.”
Q: I know, in fact such a deduction could arguably have been made from my original post.

(We agree on that then.)
SLAT: “Classic liberalism? Are you kidding me?”
Q: Classical liberalism, yes. And no, I am not kidding you. With regards to Douglas Carswell this is appropriate.

Q: There are two camps in UKIP. Those who call themselves Classic Liberals and those who definately are not. Liberalism, Schiberalism. I don’t see much Liberalism in opposing freedom of movement or gay marriage, for example. I do not believe in the kind of ‘liberalism’ of repealing hand gun bans either.
SLAT: “We have borders. UK Border Patrol. Be a realist, don’t tell porkies.”
Q: I never claimed that we did not have borders. This is a straw man argument, i.e instead of addressing the central claim you have rehashed my argument in a far more ridiculous form and then attacked that. If my point is ludicrous then it shouldn’t need altering to be refuted!

Not a straw man. We really do have border controls.
SLAT: “Why would YOU support them? You’re American right!?”
Q: No, I’m from the UK.

From, or living in?
SLAT: “What are your motivations then? Liberalism? UKIP are not Liberals. Euro-scepticism? It’s none of your business if you’re not European or British. Kippers are mostly Eurosceptic or want out. Pragmatism? Where? What?”
Q: I’ve already enumerated my three main motivations as follows;
  1. Pragmatism
  2. Fiscal conservatism
  3. Euro-skeptism
Pragmatism? No time for pragmatics. Time for action.

Fiscal conservatism? Sounds a bit ‘Ron Paul’. Too late for that. We need to claw back the wealth. How about a little Sexy Socialism?

Euro-skeptism? We have stated that SLATUKIP as a Team are split on Brexit.

Q: I would like to think UKIP is a libertarian party (as it claimed)...

... No, it isn’t.

Q: ... however, I do find some elements of social conservatism unfortunate (although the same is true of the conservative party).

I find most elements of social conservatism ‘unfortunate’.

Q: ‘Liberalism is not one of these motivations, I do not consider myself a liberal, though I do consider myself a libertarian with socially liberal views’
Are you a Liberal or not? Don’t be shy…
SLAT: “What?? Now you’re just making stuff up.”
Q: No I’m not. Economic permissivism essentially means I believe in a society where the government has a moderately laissez faire approach to the economy and that regulation is used principally to keep competition thriving.

Ah… yes competition is good. Tax the corps more anyone?

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